Talking Beef with Matt Maier from Thousand Hills

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Transcript

Leah: Welcome to Dishing Up Nutrition. I'm Leah Kleinschrodt, Registered and Licensed Dietitian with Nutritional Weight & Wellness. We have a very special episode for you today. I am joined by Matt Meyer from Thousand Hills Lifetime Grazed to talk about regenerative beef farming and why this matters so much.

Matt is going to help us understand what regenerative agriculture really means, how grazing practices can improve soil health and our ecosystems, and why the quality of the food that we eat starts long before it actually ends up on our plate. If you've ever been curious about grass-fed beef, sustainable farming, or you just simply want to learn a little bit more about where your food comes from, this is going to be a great conversation and one that you'll want to share with the people around you also. So without further ado, I want to welcome Matt. Thank you so much for being here.

Matt: And thank you for having me. I'm glad to be able to share what we're doing.

Leah: Yes. Very good. I want to start just learning a little bit more about you. Tell us a little bit how you got into this whole scene of caring about your food and caring about the environment, the grass-fed beef scene, regenerative agriculture, and just being a renegade in this beef industry.

You know, I have a little bit of background just because I've, I've heard your podcast, I've heard a little bit of your story, but I'm really happy for our listeners to have you share a little bit more about that.

Matt: Well, how long do we have? Because I probably could chew up an hour just on, on how I got here. We were on a small farm in Central Minnesota. My dad was a factory worker. My mom was a homemaker, and there were four of us kids, and I was the only boy. So me and my tomboy sister were really in charge of the farm probably way before we were ready, but it was an exciting challenge because, we got introduced to just about everything in today's standards way early. Like, my, my kindergarten gift, that my dad gave me was a tractor.

Leah: Oh my gosh.

Matt: And so he bought this certain John Deere Model A because it had a hand clutch, because my legs were too short to reach the clutch on an- any other tractor, but I could reach the hand clutch. So I started driving tractor when I was six. But, you know, looking back on it, we, it was a multi-species farm, which was very common. Our whole area, all the farms were about the same. So there were beef cattle, there were chickens, there were hogs, there were sheep, and we had 120 acres we farmed. Now, I didn't know it, but we primarily farmed organically.

This was pre-chemical, pre, you know, the 2,4-D existed and some other tools, like that, but we didn't really use much of that, probably because we couldn't afford to buy them is my guess. Didn't use much petrochemical fertilizer. It, it was really a grass-based organic farm, just not marketed as such.

It's just the way everybody did it. So, had a wonderful raising. You know, we had animals in 4-H. We ate great. We had a big garden, a lot of work. I hated it, but the food was good. And then, you know, got time to go to college, and between working full-time and working on the farm and going to school, I thought, "Oh, I'm happy to go to college."

I realized after bouncing around to different majors that my true calling was in business and marketing. So I, graduated and got a brand manager job in conventional food, working for Schwan's, and they were wonderful to work for as a brand manager. I learned a ton, but I realized the corporate ladder wasn't for me.

I left and started my own marketing agency, worked for about 15 years with clients across the board, all big food, all very conventional. And then, during that time, at the end of that time, I sold my marketing agency and wanted to move my kids back to the land that I grew up on, because I had moved, you know, 45, 50 miles away into the city and thought, "Oh, I want my young family to experience what I experienced when I was growing up."

So I- this lot came for sale that our backyard happened to be the farm I grew up on, and I thought, "Oh, I have to have this lot." There's a whole story behind that, but I ended up getting the lot and building a house and moving my family. But, you know, and I was taking them outside. I love to be outside. We, we were outside, and very early on, I noticed that things were different.

Number one, all the neighboring farms, all the animals were gone. Number two-They weren't stewarding or managing their own land anymore. It was all leased or rented to large operators that were raising GMO corn and soy, and that was the only crops that they would raise.

And that already was different because when, when I was... What I was trained is you may grow an annual like that, but then you'd go into alfalfa, for five years to pull in nitrogen. It's a legume to help rebuild the soil. So I noticed that, and then I noticed a drastic reduction in the things that I wanted to show my kids.

So I had all these visions of my childhood, tripping over butterflies around the mud puddles that were, you know, and, and the frogs and the turtles and the, and the, and the... My, my favorite story to tell is my sisters and I running around on a hot summer night, and the meadows would be just full of fireflies, thousands and thousands of fireflies.

So we'd put them in a jar and put them in our room at night, and that would be our nightlight. Probably not the most humane for the poor fireflies that would end up dying, but, you know, there were lots of them so we didn't think about that. Well, I couldn't find a single firefly- To catch with my kids.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And the stream that I played in was all murky and muddy, and I couldn't find a fraction of the butterflies that we used to catch, and all these different beautiful colored butterflies, all different, just beautiful. They were gone. And then I started noticing birds. So, and I'm working in food, and I'm like, "God, there's just something not right about our agricultural system.

What can I do now that I have this little pause in life? What can I do to change it? What can I do to, to kind of reverse what I've seen right around my own little area now that I grew up in?" Because the fields too were, were full of ruts from erosion. And you know, I learned that when somebody isn't living on the land, and yet they're farming it, they're not really stewarding it.

It's just a mining process of extracting out of that land whatever they can get, and if it doesn't work anymore, well, then I just won't lease it the next year. So it's a very limited term approach, and I saw that around me, and I thought, "Oh, what can I do?" So found some research that said the single best thing you could do to improve our food system was to manage ruminant grazing on the land.

That if you do it in a managed way, that's the shortest path to rebuilding our soil, and that's the shortest path to rebuilding our food system. And I thought, "Wonderful. That's what I did growing up." We grazed cattle. We didn't feed them grain. We didn't put them in a feedlot. They stayed on grass until we brought them to the local locker and put them in our freezer, and they were delicious.

I didn't know anything different. I'm like, "Oh, this is awesome. I can do what I did as a kid." Well, I learned that what I did as a kid wasn't exactly right. Things could've been done better. More rotation, more density on the land of the cattle. It... Mimicking bison is really what we're doing. The biomimicry of bison moving across the land and then letting the land recover, because the bison, you know, when it's gone, they trample, and they eat, and they keep moving to find their new food source.

And then they're smart enough to come back when that plant had fully expressed itself again and do the same thing over and over. And that, quite frankly, is what built this great soil that we have through the middle of the country, the Corn Belt now, was built by ruminant grazing So when people talk about how bad cattle are for the environment, it's really not the cattle, it's how they're managed.

It's not the cow, it's the how. And I just want people to know that, that, that the cattle actually left to their own devices do what they naturally do, are necessary for building and rebuilding our soil and our food system. So that led to being involved with Thousand Hills, and the whole journey started with grazing a few cattle in the old pasture that I grew up on.

And now we're sourcing cattle from producers from Minnesota to Texas. I still have my farm going. We have about 300 head of cattle on our farm that we-- I still am very blessed to be able to go out every morning before my day job of marketing beef and spend time on our farm with the practices that we talk about, regenerative grazing, with these cattle. So there's your long answer on my journey.

Leah: It sounds like, again, like you had a great foundation laid as a child, but then, you know, bringing your own family back, wanting to have them have some of those similar experiences. You know, you kind of found your way through what had kind of happened to the land at that point.

But then you were able to build on that foundation that you had had younger, growing up, all that, improve upon that, and now, like you said, kind of bringing back that ruminant grazing, and kind of just having a different perspective. I mean, when you said the, , it's not the cow, it's the how, it just opens up a whole 'nother landscape of, like, questions and, like, how can we do things just better than was previously done.

So I love that story. It's such a great evolution over time. And like you said, it's like, look at what you've built now with Thousand Hills and that business and just the welfare of the animals that you have on board is so amazing. I love that.

Matt: Yeah. The welfare of the animals, we just let them naturally express themselves, you know? We let them use what they want to graze. We move them daily. We offer mineral and other things to... Because, you know, half of the land we graze upon is degraded. The other half are the native pastures that have all kinds of fertility because they were never tilled and row crop farmed.

So we have this interesting mosaic working with 15 different landowners, all contiguous around s- our farm in the center. And it's, it's amazing to watch the cattle because they know exactly what they need for their own health. And I'd be interested to hear your perspective on that as a nutritionist, because I believe we also have that innate ability buried inside of us, but we've dumbed it down and dulled it so much that we don't... Not only do we not listen to it, we don't even know it's there.

Leah: There's definitely a lot of parallels it sounds like between, like, again, how the cattle innately know what they need, what- what's going on, and us, and it's just like there's a lot of things that get in the way of that, that muffle that sound or kind of get in the way of, of that innate ability.

So it's, I mean, a lot of what we teach at Nutritional Weight & Wellness is getting back to those foundations, those grassroots, the way our grandparents ate, great-grandparents used to eat, and trying to kind of reconnect some of those dots that have been lost in the mix, for sure.

Matt: Yeah.

Leah: Yes. Yeah. And so great story, and again, like, we're going to, we're going to get a little bit more into, like, the regenerative agriculture, the soil health and all that in a little bit, too. We did poll our Dishing Up Nutrition audience just to see, like, what questions do people have about grass-fed beef and stuff like that. So that's... We're going to weave these questions into the interview here. And one of the questions that came up a lot, or that seemed to be a big theme, was just confusion around labeling.

How is grass-fed beef different nutritionally vs. conventional? (& what to look for on labeling)

So when you go to the store, when you're looking at all the choices that are out there, like, how do we know what we're looking for? So, like, one questioner asked, like, how is grass-fed beef actually different nutritionally for us as humans? Someone asked about, you know, is there a difference in the fatty acid profile with the meat in grass-fed versus more conventionally fed beef?

And so just I think main question is just explain the difference between, like, the grass-fed, the grass-finished, and then, like, grain-fed, and just how that affects the quality of the meat that ends up on our plates. I know, big question.

Matt: Yeah, that is. I'm going to start with labeling then.

Leah: Okay.

Matt: Because it is confusing. I'm still confused by it, and I live, lived it every day for 20 years. So as far as what the USDA allows on the label, there's a rule around grass-fed that you're supposed to put on the percentage of time and diet that the animal was grazed or fed forage. So for example, if all calves born off a cow are on grass, because it wouldn't make sense to have a cow in a feedlot at that time of her life, so they're on, they're, they're, they're all basically on a pasture range somewhere calving. And so that calf, for the time that it's with the cow, conventionally that may be six months. For us, it's more like 10 months. They, it's on grass.

So it's grass-fed at that point. Then cattle are put into a backgrounding, what they call backgrounding, kind of pre-feedlot, where they're prepared for the feedlot to gain more pounds before they're in that environment, and then they go into the feedlot.

Well, it's conceivable that a grain-fed animal would be grass-fed 75% of its life or 75% of its lifetime diet. So the rule is intended that it would say 75% grass-fed on the label, but you never see that. What you either see is 100% grass-fed on the label, which is how we label our products, because they are always on grass.

They're grazed, lifetime grazed. Or just grass-fed. Well, grass-fed on its own is not, is, it's... The assumption is more or less that it's something less than 100, but it's okay just to put grass-fed when it's something less than 100, and it's okay to put pasture-raised, and it's okay to put these confusing terms on a grain-fed package.

My point is you want to look for 100% grass-fed. Okay. Now, just to ensure that all, that its diet was- forage or grass its entire life. Now, you can feed an animal in a feedlot, and I'll give you the worst-case example. The animal can be fed byproducts out of an ethanol plant or a distillery or a brewery, because the starch, in essence, has been taken out of the grain and made alcohol with, and what's left is primarily the fiber.

So the worst-case scenario is that it's called distiller grains, that that distiller grain is a cheap byproduct because they have to get rid of this byproduct in whatever facility they are. So it's a cheap byproduct. You can put it in a bunk. You can have a feedlot. You can feed them this product, which is primarily GMO corn hull, the hull that's left with whatever starch is left, and call it 100% grass-fed.

Leah: Mm.

Matt: Because the USDA, from a scientific standpoint, that's primarily fiber, which would be forage and not starch or grain. So the practices do matter in-- So the first point is you want 100%. The second point is you-- it's, it's really good to research what are the practices of the brand. And this, you know, this isn't always completely obvious.

You might have to-- You might not even find out. So then I encourage people to shop at a store that they trust that the buyers of that store are vetting and can answer the questions, that they may have. Because they- they're-- Of all, you know, what do we got? Hundreds and hundreds of food categories, you cannot be an expert on each one of them.

Leah: Yeah.

Matt: And so trusting that store, whether it's a, a local regional store or a natural food store or a co-op. But it's important that you, you know the values of that store or supermarket, and that they'll honestly answer your questions. That, that's really important. I, I do that. I, I rely on my local co-op to answer questions, whether it's about chocolate or coffee or any other vice that I have, and that, you know, that I trust that they're going to give me an, a straight answer on the practices of the brands that are lined up on their shelves.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Matt: So that's labeling.

Leah: That, yeah, the labeling, great. Like you said, it's like there is confusion. You gave us kind of a couple benchmarks at least to look at. So 100% grass-fed, even that can... Like there's layers to that, too. So like I think the other takeaway, like you said, is like let's just make sure, can we buy from places that align with your values around food, and just making sure like that they've done some of their homework, too, and that you can ask questions and get some answers and stuff like that.

The difference, between like, do we see any nutritional differences or fatty acid differences or anything between that 100% grass-fed beef versus grain-fed beef? Like do we actually see the like different outcomes when it hits the plate?

Matt: Yes. You know, that's probably the most exciting component going forward, because for decades we've talked about, you know, you are what your food eats.

Leah: Yes.

Matt: And, and we intuitively knew based on flavor and other indicators that this product, our product, let's just say a ruminant that wasn't given a diet that it was not intended for. It was a bad way of saying that, but ruminants were not made to digest simple starches like grain.

They have four stomachs to break down cellulose, grasses, forage into meat and milk. So that's their unique contribution to the food system. They can take grass and turn it into a steak. And that's pretty unique. You know, we discovered in World War II that nitrogen from petrochemicals oil could, could make a plant green and make a plant grow fast.

So we had this universal adoption of nitrogen from petrochemical that made cheap corn for the first time in ever. So we have this cheap corn going on. Now, what do we do with all this corn after this discovery about nitrogen? Well, let's put the animals in pens and feed them a lot of corn, and that includes cattle. Well, it turns out they weren't designed to eat it, but it does make them fat faster, and it does put on weight faster and put on fat and they grow faster. The challenge is they're not the healthiest when they do that with- because of the diet. So what happens is subtherapeutic antibiotics are put in, meaning in their feed, because it was also discovered that'll keep them healthier longer, and it also increases their daily gain, just having that subtherapeutic antibiotic.

And then other things have been added at the end of their life, you know, beta agonists and other steroids are given in that whole conventional grain-fed feedlot.

Now, when you contrast that with cattle on forage, okay, if they have diverse forage available to them It's just like what we preach to humans, right? A diverse diet, diverse vegetables. You don't get all of your nutrition in one food group, right? So the same thing is true of cattle.

And we part- we've-- we're participating in a, a big nutrient density study put on by Edacious and the USDA and several universities. It's groundbreaking. Dr. Van Vliet from Utah State is, is heading it up, and there's a few of these going on because the cost of analyzing a piece of meat to discover what's in it has come down with new technologies, have come down drastically.

So now we can take a piece of meat and break it down into as many components as you are interested in. You know, I-- when we measured, I think there was 28 different fatty acids that were measured, and like 30-some vitamins and minerals.

Now think about a nutritional panel. There's maybe five on the whole- nutritional panel. You know, you got- protein, you got fat, and then you got maybe iron or something else, but very few. So, we want a nutritional panel that looks like this on the package because we've got a lot to talk about in regards to that nutrient density of that product.

So what we discovered by measuring the meat across hundreds of producers, not just us, and measuring the forage and the dung and the soil, all were measured from this, from an animal, from many animals. We discovered the more diverse the diet, the lower the omega-6 fatty acid to omega-3 fatty acid. So on our own farm, we were at a 1.34 to one on six to three. So a nutritionist knows what that means, you know, that-

Leah: Yeah.

Matt: That was super exciting. And when they went through all the hundreds of samples, they could see this correlation that, you know, because you can, you can have a grass-fed animal and let it graze on wheat grass, one monoculture plant, and it's still fine, it's still great.

But when you introduce the diversity, the nutrient density increases exponentially. So diverse grasslands are necessary for so much in our world. But in our business, being able to measure the value of the nutrition in that package and show how that can help your health and ultimately reduce disease and, attack some of the bigger problems that we have in society in general, it's-- that's just, you know, truly groundbreaking. That just happened in the last couple of years.

We're still uncovering what, what do we want to talk about with consumers on the vitamin and mineral front, but the headline is the omega-6 fatty acids to omega-3.

Leah: That's amazing, and I think that's so great that again, not only are you boots on the ground doing this work and giving consumers and, and allowing us to have access to this great food, this great beef, but then also contributing to the research of, like, just all the, you know, are, what are the pros, what are the cons, or just kind of like getting into that body of research and, and, and contributing to that as well.

Like, I think that's so, so great on a lot of different levels. And then you can speak to more consumers, because everyone's got different priorities, right? It's like some do care about that fatty acid profile, and some people do care about the mineral and the vitamin content. Some people care more about, like those environmental impacts or, or the welfare of the animal.

So it's like you can speak to it on a lot of different fronts then and, and kind of make that case for, you know, why we might want to really truly look at more grass-fed beef and regenerative agriculture and things like that, and kind of getting back to that foundation like we were talking about. So that's great.

Matt: Yeah. You know, and sometimes we get... Especially from the conventional folks, we'll get, you know, the pat on the head and then say, "Well, that's cute and everything, but you can't feed the world with those practices." And actually, the opposite is true. If-- I'll get to the summary line first, and then I'll explain it.

Leah: Sure.

Matt: So how I look at that is knowing the degradation of our soil, and the World Health Organization a few years ago came out with we have 60 harvests left. So that's probably down to about 50 harvests left, or 50 years, because our soil is degrading at such a fast rate. So when you look at that, we're-- the way I see it, we're either going to choose to adopt regenerative agriculture practices, or it will be forced upon us.

Leah: Mm.

Matt: And, you know, it never goes as well when things are forced upon us as, as if we could choose that path instead.

Leah: Yep.

Matt: Just one feeding the world aspect of this. If we took the acreage in this country that grows corn to feed the cattle, which again is an unnatural diet to them, let's call that about 30 million acres, and the land that's set aside by the government in a program called CRP, which is Conservation Resource Program. So if the land isn't ideal maybe for growing crops, it's kind of a land bank, if you will. So the government pays the farmer X dollars per acre just to do nothing with it.

Leah: Okay.

Matt: Usually, you know, it's hilly or it's, you know, it's just not ideal for row cropping because our whole ag system is really built around row cropping, unfortunately. So you've got this land that's not the most ideal, but it's, it makes wonderful grazing land, especially if you're managing the grazing.

So meaning you put them on the land, you let them eat about a third of it, they trample about a third of it to cover the soil, and they leave about a third of it so that window pane, that solar panel is still there for the sun to catch and, and, and the roots don't have to completely be rebuilt.

They're already there. We can capture the energy from the sun and rebuild the plants. That's the essence of our, of how we look at grazing. But if you did that on the CRP land and the corn land that goes to cattle, we could raise the same number of beef that we do today using the feedlot system. We could match that or exceed it.

As the soil improves, your carrying capacity of cattle can improve. And then we would be building our food system instead of tearing it apart and extracting down to nothing. So the, the numbers all work. But for generations now, farmers have been taught, keep the animals off the land.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Put them in buildings, feed them. That's the most efficient way, and away, away we go. And it is the most efficient way if all you care about is pounds. So if all you're concerned about is pounds and not nutrition, and not water cycle, and not wildlife habitat, and not carbon coming off, you know, pulling carbon out of the atmosphere, those are things that we all address with this grazing. If, if all you want is pounds, yeah, then the feedlot system. We've, we're very good at figuring out the most efficient way.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Matt: But it may not be the best way.

Leah: Yes, especially long-term, like you said. Like, there's those numbers thrown out of, like, do we have 50, 60 harvests left? So it's like we do need to be thinking long-term. And I know our listeners especially, but I think most people, we're not so solely focused on just that one aspect, that one quantity aspect.

Like, I think most people truly do care about the totality of that whole picture as well. So, I think it's great that you brought up that, you know, that coming back to the practices like you guys follow actually looks at that totality of the picture. We take that more 30,000 look view at both how do we care for the animals, how do we care for us, but also care for the planet, care for the environment, all that good stuff, too. Yeah.

Matt: Well, I would agree. You know, when you take the step to learn about your own nutrition and you care about that, and you start to examine that, and you can't help but, but think more holistically. You just I don't think you can help it. You know? It's a natural next step.

Leah: Yeah. Agreed, absolutely. So we do have to pause for a moment. We're going to take a quick break, and then when we come back, I'm going to pepper you with a couple more questions that our listeners had. So we'll be right back.

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Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. I've got Matt Meyer here from Thousand Hills Lifetime Graze. We're talking about grass-fed beef, how do we take care of our environment and our soils and our animals, as well as our own health. And we polled our listeners for questions. Matt, you've answered some really great questions so far. I've got a couple more for you that I want to hit on.

Is there a difference in taste with between grass fed beef vs. grain fed? 

One that I'm curious about personally, but also I know this came up with some of our listeners, too, like just like, again, boots on the ground. When you buy grass-fed, 100% grass-fed beef like you said, is there a difference in taste w- between grass-fed beef versus grain-fed beef? And if so, like what can you tell about, like what can you prepare people for? Or like how do we then, like does that affect how we prepare the meat?

Matt: Yeah, that's a great question, and yes, there, there should be a difference in the flavor, and I'll tell you why there should be a difference. When you feed grain, like let's say corn, that homogenizes the taste of the meat. So the... You know, it builds a lot of fat in the meat, which, you know, we've been kind of trained that that's a sign of quality, the amount of fat that's in the meat, which I would argue... So fat is good if it's from a pastured animal, so fat isn't necessarily bad, but it also creates what I would say is more of a flavorless product.

And if you had them side by side, you would know what I mean. I've lived that every time I order a grain-fed steak at a restaurant. If I'm forced to do it, I, I will. Beef is still a nutrient-dense product, even if it is grain-fed. But what's cool about grass-fed is, yes, the, the flavor will be more pronounced, but its flavor is a reflection of nutritional profile or density.

So you will, if it's truly grass-fed and the practices have a diverse diet, you will get an explosion of flavor in your mouth on a bite of steak. There'll be more moisture, first of all. There'll be translucent fats that aren't as obvious as the specks of fat from grain-fed, but there'll be both specks of fat and more translucent fat, and the flavor will be more pronounced.

Now- We've been trained that all beef should taste the same, but within grass-fed, there are different flavor profiles because they're raised in different ecoregions, they're eating different plants, they're eating different plants at different times of the year. So I make the parallel to, to wine. We don't expect every bottle of wine to taste the same, even if it's from the same brand and it's the same Cabernet Sauvignon, whatever.

We don't expect it to all taste exactly the same. And with the right practices, we shouldn't expect the same from beef. We should expect that different times of the year and different ecoregions are going to have a slightly, it's just slight, slightly different flavor. I mean, for me, when our red clover is blooming and it's at full expression, and we harvest an animal from that time, that's my favorite flavor profile.

It'll also vary some based on the age of the animal. Older animals will actually have more flavor because what we found in the nutrient density study is that they accumulate nutrition or vitamins and minerals in the meat more over time than a young animal does.

So you will get a different flavor profile there. You also will get more texture, and some people would say toughness. Now, properly raised and properly finished grass-fed beef does not taste like shoe leather, yet I tell people almost everybody who's been diligent about trying grass-fed beef, or especially grass-fed steaks, has probably had a bad experience And the reason why, there's a- there's two big reasons why.

One, the genetics of the animal. We have bred out the genetics that perform well on grass in this country, because over 95% of the cattle end up in a feedlot, so they're bred to perform in a feedlot. Which I won't get into everything about that, but it's generally a larger boned, taller, bigger animal, because every year they want more meat on that carcass, and every year they do get more meat on that carcass.

But what we look for in our genetics that work in a grass-fed system is a moderate-framed cow that has a big rumen that can process a lot of forage, and the rumen size has really been diminished in this, in this, breeding that's happened over time. so moderate-framed can put on weight and fat on forage, and it's we're...

We had to seek out ranchers who kept their herds closed for 50 years. So some very wise people decades ago said, "I'm not going to follow that path. I'm going to keep my herd closed. I'm not going to go bigger. I'm not going to go- I'm not going to follow that. I'm going to, I'm going to do what works for me." And fortunately they exists out there.

It wasn't so much time that they just all went away. They, they still exist. We tap into that, the genomics of that animal, so that we can have a delicious steak when they- when the cattle are properly grazed with proper forage and diversity. You can have the best steak of your life when all that, when all that happens.

Leah: Yes. Okay, so the genetics. You said there's two reasons why people might have had a bad experience with grass-fed beef. So you said one is genetics, which I had no idea of any of that. So that’s very interesting to learn. What’s the second one?

Matt: The second one is the diet.

Leah: Okay.

Matt: So the, the, the right animal and the right diet.

Leah: Got it.

Matt: So having that diverse forage for their lifetime, not underfed at any point, not what we call set grazed, where they graze down to the ground. The, it turns out that in a plant, when the sun comes out every day, the sugars travel to the ends of the plant.

Leah: Okay.

Matt: And that's what we want, that energy we want the animal to have. And the more they eat that plant down, the more they're going into the proteins, and too much protein can create an off flavor. So that livery flavor in beef, grass-fed beef, comes from a, a, a diet too heavy in protein. So we want those sugars in the plant with some, some protein and, and then you get that balance right, it, it is an art and a science, then you end up with a, with a wonderful steak.

Leah: Yeah. Okay, that makes... It makes so much sense when you explain it that way. But like, again, genetics, diet, and just like kind of getting that, like the right access to the right part of the plant for the right amount of time, like had no idea, like all that background. So that's super interesting to learn.

What is the biggest misconception about grass-fed beef that Matt hears? 

Yes. So I definitely want to ask you about is- Again, big question. What is the biggest misconception people have about grass-fed beef that you hear about and, and again, what's your response to that?

Matt: Well, I think the couple of myths that are out there we've addressed already, the one that all cows are bad and they should just go away. No. A man's management of cattle should change to mimic nature, period. Right? The other one is, on the taste and flavor profile and texture, that all grass-fed beef is tough and difficult to eat.

That's a big myth that I just dispelled. I'll tell you, I probably eat two steaks a week because I'm constantly asking myself the same question, "Is this one going to eat all right? It looks like this, it looks different than the other one. Is it going to eat all right?"

Leah: Sure.

Matt: Because, they're not raised in a factory, they're raised in nature, and so every steak looks different. Unlike grain-fed, you put enough grain in, they all look the same. They all have the same finish, they all weigh about the same, the steaks come out about the same. And so I know there's different flavor profiles. So especially in the early days of grass-fed, which was about 20 years ago, many cattle were just converted over to grass and, and it still happens today.

And then said, no it’s a cow. It’ll be fine. And well, no, you end up with this eating experience that's less than good. So I think it's, I think it's just that, you know? It’s the, it's the whole idea of, "Well, if I want a good steak, well then it has to be grain-fed." And I would just challenge that and, and encourage people to try a grass-fed steak that came from the right genetics and the right forage and see what they think.

Leah: Yeah. So it sounds like that means, like, you might want to try it at different times of the year. You might want to try a couple different either brands, or it's like just don't attribute it all to one specific experience or one specific time because, like you said, it's like there's such, like, nature itself is dynamic and diverse. You have to expect that also with more of that grass-fed and regenerative agriculture and, and stuff like that kind of raised meat, so.

Matt: Well, yeah ... and you asked about preparation, so that, that leads into preparations. So first of all, I wouldn't-- If I was trying grass-fed steaks, I wouldn't recommend a restaurant. Because it’s really difficult to find out where that steak came from.

Leah: Okay.

Matt: I ask a lot of questions when I go to a restaurant. I don't think most people will or want to, and I don't blame them. I'm kind of a pain in the butt when it comes to asking questions at a restaurant. So I would just say not right now, unless you know it's a local restaurant sourcing and you know the practices of who they're sourcing from and all that. It’s not like I’m against restaurants.

So then you got to source your own, either from your store or from a local farmer. And when you do that, know the practices, take into consideration everything I've said before, and then prepare it yourself. Now, if you're going to prepare a steak, it- from- that's grass-fed, it's not going to be as forgiving as a grain-fed steak because it's not going to have as much fat, and fat provides forgiveness for overcooking, is the primary culprit.

So you're going to want to do about four minutes on a side, get it caramelized. Only flip the steak once, and, and get another four minutes, get it caramelized, get it to the temperature you want. You know, I, I don't advocate well done, but medium well is fine, medium's fine, medium rare is fine, whatever you prefer.

Once you get that caramelization on the steak, then put it to a lower part of the grill to just slowly cook for, depending on your temperature, five to 10 minutes to the temp you want, and then take it off the grill and then let it rest another 10 minutes. And that will... The, the... What happens is the steak will take, take in more of the juices from the steak.

So resting the steak is really important. A little low heat in the grill or, or a pan or however you're preparing it is important, and getting your caramelization for flavor on both sides of the steak. You do that. Don't forget about it. You can't walk away. Don’t drink a beer.

You can drink a beer while you do it, but you can't just walk away and drink a beer. So it is important and it's really not hard. It’s just a minor difference from grain-fed. A little less time at high heat and a little more rest. That's it.

Leah: Sure. And that seems simple enough, and some of what... I mean, I just want to highlight something you said too. It sounds like just intentionality around and paying attention to how you're cooking it or just, like, making sure, like you said, you don't just walk away, go do something else, come back. So it maybe, again, like that's another parallel with just how, like the, the grazing practices that you guys have and, and just this whole scene of grass-fed beef.

It is, it is about being more intentional and just trying to get certain outcomes out of, you know, better outcomes both for planet, animal, us. So that, that applies to when you're cooking it also. Like, there's an intentionality. There's like a... There's more paying attention. You're like probably not multitasking a whole lot. So just wanted to point that one out.

Matt: Well, I love that you said that because I would build on that and say it reminds me so when you choose this type of agriculture, you are being very intentional, and you want to make a difference. And that’s universal with everyone who’s in this space.

So there's reverence that goes along with nature, with raising that animal, with how it's harvested is very important that it's done; we choose plants that will do that with reverence and understand that they're here to feed us, but we also need to do that whole act with reverence. And if you really understand the care that went into that animal for its life, and its harvest, and its further processing, I think you would feel an obligation to make sure that you're preparing it as well as you can.

Because it's going to increase your enjoyment, but it's also just treating the whole food system that it came from with the reverence that's held all the way through that life.

Leah: Mm-hmm ...

Matt: as a society, we don't really see our food that way very much. And I believe we should. You know, it doesn't matter if it's a berry or an apple or a chicken or a cow, that intentionality that you bring up and that reverence of there's a lot of care that went into preparing that food when it's grown properly, regeneratively, that we should all respect, in my opinion.

Leah: Yeah. I've heard you use that term before, reverence. I think that's a very good descriptive word to use in this scenario; reverence, intention, and you know, any of those types of things, like, kind of apply to this scene for sure. And so I think one last big questions. And then we’ll get into little wrap up questions.

Weighing value of grass-fed vs. grain fed 

But I think one thing that I run into counseling people a lot, everyone has a budget. Everyone is cost, you know, cost-aware and things like that. And so grass-fed, I mean, and correct me if I'm wrong, but grass-fed tends to run a little bit, at a little bit higher price point when you are actually at that store or the co-op buying it.

Matt: It does.

Leah: How do you think about just, like, weighing those value of the grass-fed beef versus, like, the grain-fed versus, like, okay, I'm trying to feed my family, I'm on a budget. Like, how do you think about that, or how would you encourage people to kind of address that?

Matt: Well, I would challenge people to think about what is the value of what is in the package.

Leah: Hmm.

Matt: So grass-fed, no question, does cost more. How much more? Maybe $2 a pound, maybe $3 a pound, maybe $5; depends on the store. I can't say how much exactly. But what is the value of that package? We already know now that there's two, three times the nutrition in that package.

We know... We haven't talked about carbon, but we know that our practices with live plants and photosynthesis for the entire growing season, no tilling, pulls in carbon, which helps our, our atmosphere. We know that we're improving the water cycle, because when you improve this organic matter in the soil, which we haven't talked at all about, but we've, we've got places that we've increased the organic matter five times in 20 years, 500%.

And that organic matter means water is staying in the land to produce more food for our food system versus running off. Animal welfare, that animal's been allowed to express its natural behavior for its whole life and eat its natural diet for its whole life. And then rural economy. The biggest reason why it costs more is because this product is not associated with the large consolidated feedlots, plants that process them.

You know, that's what we've done with all of our food in this country. We thought we were really smart, consolidate, make bigger, go faster, make it more efficient. It all sounded good in the '70s and '80s, let's say. But now we're learning there's unintended consequences of that. The pollution from a feedlot is troublesome for the water, you know?

The chemicals that we use on the land get into the water, and people, and animals. So it's a choice, but there's a cost to both sides. So that same manure when that's in a feedlot that's polluting, seen as pollution, rightly so, both, air, and groundwater, and land. When, when it's spread naturally and moved daily, it's actually invigorating the soil.

That same manure is invigorating the soil across, in an even way, across thousands of acres versus confined. So it's a choice. and I know it's a tough choice. I mean, I know. I've, I've been there with the food dollars and trying to decide what I'm going to eat. What I would say when it comes to beef, buy better and eat less.

Have a smaller portion, and have something else with it because your dollars matter. Voting with your dollars is huge for our survival. If we don't have a market for what we're doing, we can't do all the things that provide all the benefits that are, that are real.

They're measurable. It's science. It's data. So that voting with a dollar makes a lot of sense. It's just balancing. It just, but you know, balancing other whole foods. You add whole foods to your shopping basket, a whole potato, for example versus a French fry. You're going to get a much more value for your food dollar.

Takes a little more preparation, but you're going to get more nutrition, and you're going to get more value if we get back to buying whole foods, preparing them, and, and, and honoring that whole system that produced it. I would advocate that you can actually reduce your spend on food just by doing that, and then take that nutritional level up many notches, you know?

So, and we saw that happen in the pandemic. We saw it happen right before our eyes. Our, our business literally grew 50% in six weeks. Because everybody was going to the store and buying their food. And then they were much more aware of, "Where is my food coming from?"

So the small stores that we worked with, we, we, we're not a Walmart, we're not in Whole Foods on purpose. And those stores, they were busy, they were providing a great service. We had a 95% fill rate during the pandemic to those small stores. They had meat on the shelves, and people were learning how to cook and enjoying it and using it as a, a social outlet to prepare a meal together. I'd love it if that continued.

Leah: And so it sounds like it's, we want, we want to look at the impact that that dollar or that $2 or that three extra dollars is making, not just, you know, just, not just at face value, but, like, how does that trickle down into the effects, like all the other effects on, again, like the ecosystem, how that animal was raised.

It does impact the nutritional value that you're getting there. So sometimes, again, like it's, it's hard, again, when you're operating on that budget and you're just kind of looking at the pluses and minuses and looking at the, at the numbers and making it make sense. I mean, our logical brains like to do that.

But if we can kind of like peel back the layers of the onion a little bit and start to look at the impact holistically, you might decide to choose, just choose some of your shopping habits a little bit differently. Is, is... I think that's what I'm hearing you say.

Matt: Yeah. And start with whatever category you want to start with, you know?

Leah: Yeah. Yep.

Matt: You know, products that you might consume more of, you might want to start there and make a change. And, you know, there's that Dirty Dozen foods that are, that's published every year. I started there myself, you know? "Oh- I'm going to buy organic produce.”

Done. I'm not even going to go to the other section. I don't even care what it costs. I'm going to buy- organic produce because I don't want the chemicals in my body." I'm a cancer survivor. The chemical side of it was really big for me changing my diet. And so I started with the biggest offenders and started ticking those off.

Leah: For me, I think I, I, if I remember correctly, I think mine was, like, organic eggs. Going with organic or free range eggs, like, that was just, for me, that was an easy easier entry point than some of the other things, so that's where I started. So yeah, it's like pick your thing, and just start kind of deciding what's, you know, where is it worth it to you.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Leah: Yep.

Matt: It’s more fun if you choose something you really like, you know?

Leah: Yeah.

Matt: If you really love strawberries, start with strawberries. If you really love eggs, start with eggs. If you really love ground beef, start with ground... You know, like, pick something that it's fun to invest in.

Leah: Yes.

Matt: That you enjoy.

Where can you shop for 1000 Hills beef?

Leah: That’s another great tip for sure. Okay, couple, just couple quick wrap-up questions. You started, you answered this a little bit, but just spell it out a little bit more for people. We’re here at Nutritional Weight & Wellness, we’re here in Minnesota. I think you’re here in Minnesota, right? Where do people find Thousand Hills beef? You said purposely you're not in Walmart, Whole Foods, some of the bigger food purveyors there. So where do we find you?

Matt: We're in the local food co-ops, locally and nationally. That’s our foundation. You know, we're blessed in Minnesota, we have more food co-ops per capita than anywhere else in the country. So it's a great incubator for businesses like ours, but it's also great for consumers.

Coborn's, some in Kowalski's, And of course you can order us online, but we actually prefer that you go to your retailer that you trust and find one that you trust. And you know, there-- Just to bring up the, the W's of Walmart and Whole Foods, the, the reason why we made that choice is because, number one, the co-ops are, are our foundation and our legacy.

Number two, it's part of... To me, it's part of building a rural economy back that we all don't work for the same organizations, that small retailers have a chance of survival, whether that's a food co-op, natural food store, small regional chain, medium-sized regional chain, but that they're independently owned.

To me, that provides more jobs and stability in our economy. We saw what happened during the pandemic when everything was consolidated into one. That supply chain doesn't work under pressure. The diverse supply chain, where we use over a dozen different plants, allowed us to continue. So having those local jobs and those local businesses is where we want to invest, because that, that provides resilience to our overall food system.

Leah: Great. So yes, you're right. I mean, and so like here in the Twin Cities where we're located, this would be like your Mississippi Markets. This would be your, like you said, natural food co-ops; Valley Natural Foods. You mentioned Kowalski's. Yep. Exactly.

Matt: Lakewinds.

Leah: Lakewinds is a big one. Yep.

Matt: Yeah. Yep.

Leah: Yep.

Matt: Linden Hills, Eastside Co-op.

What is new on the horizon for Thousand Hills Cattle Company?

Leah: Yeah, hit them all. All great, yeah for sure. So as, as we're wrapping up, I mean, you mentioned, like what's next on the horizon for you guys as, as a business, as a company for grass-fed beef?

You... And you mentioned, participating with the USDA on that big research study and stuff like that, so that's kind of an ongoing thing. Is there anything else new or exciting coming down the line for you guys?

Matt: Well, our, our biggest challenge is always using the entire carcass. So this animal has been raised, let's use the whole carcass. So it's, I always think we’re kind of at the end of product development. But we just introduced soup bones, frozen soup bones, so people can make bone broth or soup or whatever they want. We, we have marrow bones. We have... We just introduced a line of charcuterie so that we could have, you know, participate in that eating occasion with a responsible product.

It's a wonderful product. It's my favorite. So the product development continues, especially with an eye towards nutrition, things like oxtail and organ meat, things that really we've thrown away. We've given it to our dogs and dog food, the most nutritious parts of the animal. So we're bringing all that liver, heart, tongue, bringing all that back and trying to make it available so that consumers that know enough that that's where the nutrition lies, that they can access that.

And that's really necessary. So there's always something coming. And then the other part of it is, you know, there's been a lot of talk, especially in this administration, about the consolidation of beef and the beef processing and all of that.

So we want to continue to promote that there are alternatives to the big consolidated industrialized model, and that is decentralized investing in communities, investing in meat processing, investing in farmers that want to do something other than raise grain. And that's beginning to happen with the remake of the food guide pyramid, with the investment into small and medium-sized processing through the USDA.

There really is beginning to ha- be traction around supporting this more community-based food and bringing jobs to communities around our food. And that, to me, is the big, big vision of how we really fix this. And we want to, we just want to have a voice in, in that process because we feel like we figured something out with our decentralized supply chain that we have, and we'd like to share it with others as a solution, in a bigger way, in our food system in the country.

Leah: And I will, I will plug too, I know just you mentioned the new products that you have, the, the beef, the ground beef mixed with organ meats. I'm so excited for that because like you said, like the organ meats are just have- they've kind of evaporated out of, out of what we typically eat, but they're so nutrient-dense, and they're so great for us.

And so just blending even little bits of that into the ground beef is like such an easy access point for people, I think too. I think you call it the Renegade Blend or something.

Matt: Yeah. it's our Renegade Blend. It's about 5% liver, 7% heart, and you can barely taste it, but you're getting that additional nutrition. It's a very popular product. It's an, it's, it's heartening to see people really looking for that organ meat.

Leah: Yeah. even 5, 7%, like it might not seem like much, but over time it adds up.

Matt: It does.

Leah: Well very good. Matt, this was a great conversation. Again, I was so excited to have you on and get to chat with you. Well, we will have another chat, here in the future because I think I'm going on your podcast in a couple of weeks. I'm excited for that.

Matt: Yes.

Leah: But I just, again, want to thank you so much for sharing your knowledge about just grass-fed beef. We didn't even talk too much about the regenerative agriculture piece, so maybe that'll be another conversation, too. I think this is just a really great reminder for our listeners and, and maybe new information for a lot of people, too, that the food choices that we make can have... It has an impact on our health, yes, but it can have even far more reaching effects than that.

So when we, when we understand where that food comes from and how it's raised, we can make better, more informed decisions to support both our wellbeing, but also the health of the environment. so if people want to learn more, obviously they can share, you know, this is a great resource, this, this particular episode, but you guys have a really great, a lot of great information on your website, which is thousandhillslifetimegrazed.com. So give that one a visit. So again, I really appreciate you coming on today.

Matt: It was my pleasure. I enjoyed the conversation, and I appreciate the support of what we're doing, so thank you very much.

Leah: Yeah. You're welcome. And thank you listeners for listening to Dishing Up Nutrition. If you enjoyed this episode, again, share it with a friend or family member who's also interested both in making better food choices, interested in sustainable food systems, learning more about beef.

Share this episode with them. We'd love to get that information out far and wide. And our goal at Nutritional Weight & Wellness is to teach people the power of real food and how life-changing it can be. It's a simple, yet powerful message. So thank you all for listening, and make it a great day.