October 14, 2018
Asthma is a long-lasting lung disorder that affects 25 million people of all ages in the U.S. About 7 million asthma sufferers are children and about 3 million of those are children as young as three years old. In today’s show, we will talk about how nutrition can help reduce asthma attacks and lung inflammation, and how one of our nutritionists put her own asthma into remission by changing what she ate.
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CASSIE: Welcome to Dishing Up Nutrition. I'm Cassie Weness. I'm a registered and licensed dietitian and I have been for about the past 20 years. And you listeners know as well as I do that every day there are new nutrition studies coming out, so of course I'm always trying to stay on top of things and read those new nutrition studies. I love to do that because it's my passion. It's what I'm interested in, but I also love to do that so that I can share that new information with all of you and help get you on the road to your best health. And I know every one of our long time listeners understand that what we eat affects every cell in our body. What we eat affects every cell in our brain. Think about that. And today we're going to be talking a lot about how what we eat affects the cells of our lungs. Today, our show is all about asthma, particularly childhood asthma. I think everybody knows that asthma is a long-lasting lung disorder, but some of you may not know that asthma affects 25 million people of all ages in the United States. About 7 million of those 25 million asthma sufferers are kids and about 3 million of those 25 million are very young kids, even as young as three years old. Now, if you're a parent of a child with asthma, you know well that those asthma flares can be scary. Asthma inflames and narrows the airways and then the child starts to cough and wheeze or maybe some of you listening are adults with asthma, so maybe you know this feeling very well. The wheezing, the tightness in your chest, the shortness of breath. You can only imagine that as a young child, that's really scary to not be able to breathe and certainly it's scary for the parents to watch this unfolding. So, I hope you stay with us all hour today because we have some great information, not just about the mechanics of asthma, but about how you can change your child's diet or your diet for that matter to help alleviate the symptoms of asthma. And joining me today is my cohost, Lea Wetzell. Lea is a Certified Nutrition Specialist. She's also a licensed nutritionist, but what I think is even more important than all of her credentials is that she has her own personal story about how she put her asthma into remission with good nutrition. So, today we're going to have Lea share what worked for her. She'll highlight some of the current research out there and talk about how nutrition can help reduce asthma attacks and lung inflammation. All of this talk about catching our breath. I need to stop and say welcome to the show, Lea.
LEA: It's really great to be on with you this morning, Cassie.
CASSIE: It's going to be a really great show and I think we should just start right off with having you talk about how you successfully changed your nutrition to reduce the amount of inflammation in your lungs. And I know that you love to read the research probably even more than I do. So, I know you have some great research to share as well, but do you want to talk a little bit more about your story?
LEA: Sure, sure. Well, good morning to the listeners. This may sound strange, but I started with the belief system that something that was eating or drinking may be causing my lungs to be inflamed. My asthma wasn't genetic and it wasn't from the air pollution. The biggest thing that helped me get off of my asthma medications and stop using my rescue inhaler daily was when I changed my diet. So, the biggest thing for me was what I was eating was causing my lungs to be inflamed. Research from the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute published in the New England Journal of Medicine, March 2018, found that increased odds of inhaled steroids did not prevent severe flare ups. So, basically, extra steroid medication did not help and there's side effects of taking steroids. So, I knew I needed to look at another source to be symptom-free. And as a nutritionist I looked at foods that are well known to cause inflammation, whether in your lungs or, for some people, that inflammation is in their knees or in their head if they're having chronic migraines. Inflammation manifests in many different ways. When I looked at my diet prior to coming to work at Nutritional Weight & Wellness many years before, it was full of high sugar juices and sugar. I knew that soda was high in sugar, but I had no idea that juice was just as inflammatory and high in sugar as soda. And it contains so much.
CASSIE: A lot of sugar in that juice. And I think you're certainly not the only one. Unless you study nutrition, I don't think people stop to ponder what is in juice and how does that compare to soda. But, like you have said, Lea, juice contains about the same amount of sugar. If you look ounce for ounce, it's pretty close. It’s about the same, it depends on which juice and which pop. So, think about it this way. Your lungs don't know the difference. They don't know if you just got that sugar load from a bottle of Mountain Dew or if you just got that sugar load from a big bottle of apple juice or orange juice. And as I was preparing for this show, I came across some really sobering research here that I want to share with everybody. Juice, pop, other sugary drinks are the cause of about 184,000 deaths each year worldwide. Wow. Isn’t that just obnoxious? That was reported back in 2015. If anybody wants to read that research further in a journal called Circulation. It was in their August 2015 publication. Now of those 184,000 deaths, they determined that about a 113,000 were from diabetes. So, do you see the link here? Too much sugar from the orange juice and the Mountain Dew and the sweet tea and you get diabetes and then complications of diabetes lead to death. Of those 184,000 deaths worldwide from high sugar drinks, about 45,000 come from cardiovascular disease and about 6,500 come from different forms of cancer. So again, all of these deaths were the result of inflammation from beverages high in sugar, whether it's pop or juice or sweet tea or how about these coffee drinks? My son is 12. He'll be 13 soon. A lot of his friends I feel like are addicted to these coffee drinks, the Mochas, the Frappuccino’s. And I don't think they or their parents realize how much sugar is in them.
LEA: Right. Big Discussion in the office when I'm working with a young one that has asthma or any other sort of inflammation is what they are drinking. Not only what are they eating but a lot of times, you really don't realize the level of sugar that they're consuming in their beverages and a lot of times that’s that target age range. That is where they're going to their favorite coffee shop and getting those high, high, high sugar coffee drinks.
CASSIE: And I think you're exactly right that they don't realize what's in them. I think this research reflects the overwhelming problem with most of the beverages available today.
LEA: I drink a lot of fruit juice, not realizing that if I drank one 16 ounce juice, I was getting at least about 45 grams of carbohydrates. So, that's over what I would consider a meal’s worth of carbohydrates in a little timeframe. And that's over 11 teaspoons of sugar. However, I didn't drink one bottle of juice. I would often, in a day's time, I would drink three to four bottles of juice every day. Where I used to work at the time they would sell them in the vending machines, so I would go and get a bunch for the day and thinking again, “Oh, I'm doing good. I'm not drinking soda.” So, I'm not drinking soda, but I would drink a lot of juice. And so, some days I was drinking 45 teaspoons of sugar.
CASSIE: And then, that's without even what foods you were eating. So, wow, that's a lot of sugar circulating.
LEA: Yes. And I really just didn't realize how unhealthy my juice drinking habit was for my lungs. And because somehow I had bought into all of the advertisements on TV or magazines. Even some health magazines will say that this is the route to do for drinking and health is to drink a lot of juice.
CASSIE: Water’s better.
LEA: Right. Well we have our first break, Cassie. You're listening to Dishing Up Nutrition brought to you today by Nutritional Weight & Wellness.
The frequency of asthma has risen in the US over the past 30 years, and many researchers believe that the processed food diet many Americans are eating is the root cause. A 2007 studies showed that children who grew up on eating real food, like what we talk about on this show every week, were less likely to have asthma-like symptoms today. We are discussing the change I made in my diet to put my asthma symptoms into remission. I changed from eating high sugar, processed foods to a real food diet that I cook in my kitchen at home. Stay tuned as we outline my personal approach to eliminating my asthma symptoms. We’ll be right back.
CASSIE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. Since we're discussing asthma and lung health today, I think it's important to look at specific nutrients that support healthy lung tissue. I think a lot of you realize that Omega-3 fish oils help to reduce inflammation, but to reduce lung inflammation, the research actually indicates that the Omega-6 fatty acid called GLA, or the longer name is gamma linolenic acid, is the preferred fatty acid. GLA is what we call an activated fatty acid, and it supports healthy tissue really throughout the body, but it really works on those lungs. It seems to target those lungs and reduce inflammation there. That's sort of it's specialty. It's also the fatty acid that's beneficial for hair growth, healthy skin, and strong nails. So again, GLA is a key fatty acid for reducing inflammation in the lungs and for keeping the lung tissue flexible and healthy. On that note, if you're wanting to supplement with healthy fatty acids to help heal your asthma, for adults, we would recommend starting with 2000 milligrams of Omega-3 fish oil capsules or you can do that in a liquid form and then add on 600 milligrams of GLA, that gamma linolenic acid. If you're wanting to start your child on fish oil supplements and possibly GLA, Lea and I think it's best to work with a licensed nutritionist or a registered dietician to find the right amount for your child based not just on their needs, but on their size. As we were talking about in the break room, the size of a 12 year old can vary because some have had and some haven't had their growth spurt yet.
LEA: Or the difference between a 14 year old and a 15 year old. Everyone is a little different. And both of these nutrients were really critical for my recovery. Both are very much therapeutic and very helpful in my experience for helping with my asthma symptoms.
CASSIE: And you still take the GLA to keep your asthma away.
LEA: And also the Omega-3. So, before break we were talking about the sugar hidden in our beverages and I was sharing my experience about what I thought was healthy of all my juice consumption and in some cases equal to 45 teaspoons of sugar a day.
CASSIE: And I bet this is new information for a lot of people that, “Oh my goodness, if I'm feeding my child juice, I'm really just feeding them pure sugar.” So I really want the listeners to stop right now and answer this question. Are you giving your child juice regularly? If you answered yes, today's the day to stop. Stop drinking the juice. Switch to water.
LEA: And I would say that that's really easy to say, right? Kids can be very particular and if they're well-adjusted to drinking juice, going from drinking straight juice to drinking plain water may not be one step to the other.
CASSIE: They might just shrivel up to a prune and not drink anything.
LEA: Right. And so, I often will advise clients that we just need to adjust them to the taste of just drinking plain water. So, we'll start with adding some water to the juice and get them used to that and you add a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. And before you know it, you can really ultimately just kind of lightly color your water with the juice. And they'll just take it right down. They need that adjustment, though. You need to find an alternative replacement for kids because they'll just protest in some cases. Some cases, maybe they will do it.
CASSIE: But you know your child. I think you're right that for most kids you're going to need to slowly adjust because we heighten our tolerance to sugar so we need more and more and more. And then if all of a sudden you cut off that sugar, that's not going to be interesting to them at all. So we have to retrain their taste buds. Another idea and something we do here and there at our house when the kids are getting a little bored with water is something called Fruits and Greens. I know you do that sometimes, too. And if you want to learn more about this product, it's a powder mix that you put in water. It's just one little scoop. You add it to a big glass of water and it's zero sugar, but it's got a little natural sweetness to it. It's full of antioxidants. So, antioxidants are those things that help protect our lungs and protect all of our organs, really. And there's so many different flavors and I honestly love them all. Right now we have the Strawberry Kiwi because that's what my daughter loves. And it is delicious. I like to put the Espresso one in my smoothies sometimes in the morning. There's a berry one.
LEA:There's all sorts of different flavors and they keep coming out with different flavors, which is really fun. And my kids love all of them and we’re just kind of getting out of the season now, but our popsicles at home are Dynamic Greens with maybe a little natural lemon or lime juice and water. The kids love them.
CASSIE: Great idea. And you're just smirking in the background thinking, “You don’t know I’m just loading you up with nutrients.”
LEA: It's awesome. There’s a lot of ways to use it. And I have yet to meet a kid that hasn't liked the Dynamic Greens. So that's a nice one to have around to kind of fill in.
CASSIE: Yeah, I think you're right. But yeah, like we were saying, for most kids, you're gonna need baby steps. Maybe some creative replacements like diluting that juice or trying the Dynamic Greens. And then you might be asking, “So why is sugar so bad for our lungs?” The answer is quite simple. Sugar causes Inflammation. Want to know more? I encourage you to go to our website. We have tons of great information about this. And pull up our blog called Sugar Aches and Inflammation. Now, when I think about drinking up all that juice, all I can really think about is the sugar aches and inflammation. And at that time I was my late teens, early twenties. I had lots of inflammation, lots of aches and pains. I remember joking like, “Whoa, I feel like I'm middle aged!” And now I'm pretty close to 40, and it's like backwards. Well, the aches and pains are gone. It was cause and effect, a direct relation to the sugar I was drinking.
CASSIE: There is a direct relation, right? And I know the faithful Dishing Up Nutrition listeners know that sugar causes inflammation, but I bet the new listeners to our program don't know that. This is new information. It reminds me of a conversation I had with my brother. His elbow had swelled up. He's a farmer, rancher back home. So he's doing a lot of physical labor. His elbow had swelled up so big. It was just ugly. Of course, if you knew him, you'd know he'll never go to the doctor and he asked me what I thought about this elbow and I said, I think you're eating too much sugar. And the look on his face, you could tell he thought I grew two heads. And this is a smart guy that graduated Valedictorian, but that was a connection he did not know. So, I think we just have to remember that this isn't knowledge that everybody has, but sugar equals inflammation.
LEA: And we'll have to talk more about this. I know we're just getting into this conversation. It’s great, but it's break time.
You're listening to Dishing Up Nutrition. We are discussing lung health and nutritional habits that can reduce your child's risk or your risk of developing asthma. It may surprise you that upwards of 70 percent of people with asthma also have acid reflux or also known as gerd, which can cause and can make asthma more difficult to control. After break, Cassie will suggest ways to eliminate acid reflux and thus reduce your asthma symptoms. We’ll be right back.
CASSIE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. This show is brought to you by Nutritional Weight & Wellness. My name is Cassie Weness and I'm in studio today with Lea Wetzell. Before we went to break, Lea mentioned that I would talk about ways to get rid of acid reflux when we came back. So that's what I want to do and I have to say helping people get rid of acid reflux or what some people refer to as Gerd, which just stands for gastroesophogeal reflux disease, is truly one of the things that I really, really enjoy about being able to do as a dietician, maybe partly because they just have a lot of clinical experience, so it's kind of second nature and that makes it fun. But also I understand what it's like to have a child with acid reflux from my own personal experience as a mom. Some of you may have heard my story on Dishing Up Nutrition before and I'm not going to go into all the detail, but my son suffered from Gerd, gastroesophageal reflux disease as a baby, which I don't think it's all that uncommon, but his never went away. And I talked on one of our past podcasts about how the doctor put Riley, at age four, on an adult dose of Prevacid. And the reflux started to rear its ugly head again, even though he's taking this adult dose. And I ended up in another doctor's office that specialized in gastroenterology and the doctor just wanted to double his already adult dose. It was so discouraging. But long story short, I walked out of there and never went back and took alternative routes to figure out Riley's issues. One thing I found and that I find is a problem for most kids, especially with acid reflux, is that they're lacking good bacteria in their intestinal tract. If there's a deficiency of good bacteria in your intestines, think about it. Your food is not getting digested properly, so it sits there longer than it should. It's not moving through in a timely manner and so it's more likely to back up into the esophagus along with those gastric juices and cause that acid reflux. So, that was a piece of the puzzle with my son. Every story is different, but with my son that didn't totally cure it. When we found out he had celiac disease and removed the gluten, that was a big piece of the puzzle. But over the years I found out that he had some other food sensitivities as well. And so that really made a difference, especially once we removed soy, dairy, and corn. Those were three biggies. So we are gluten free. We are dairy free, no soy, no corn. Some people listening might think, “How can you do that and what do you eat?” But I have to tell you, when his reflux went away by removing those four things, I was so happy to do it. And the house was just happier because Riley was sleeping through the night.
So, think about it this way, your lung health starts in your intestines. It's so important to make sure that those kids have good gut health and get rid of the foods that they may have sensitivities to in order to avoid inflamed lungs and get rid of the asthma. And those of you that listen regularly know that Lea is a parent of two young kids. I am a parent of two middle schoolers, so we certainly understand that it's hard to change up a child's diet. When they have their habits and they're used to certain foods, it's hard. But I think back to when we got diagnosed with celiac disease and the dairy allergy, those two diagnoses came at the same time. You can imagine I cried. It’s overwhelming. It was Riley and his sister and then I found out I had a dairy allergy and a gluten intolerance, which ultimately was great because we're just a team. But I sat down and met with the owner of Nutritional Weight & Wellness, with Dar. You would think, okay, I'm a dietician. I can figure this out for myself. But it was so overwhelming I needed to sit down and talk through things with somebody else and get their feedback and their direction. So what I'm saying is I think any and all of you out there who are parents of kids with asthma and you want to change up their diet for the better to try to get rid of the asthma or at least lessen the symptoms, you need the support of a licensed nutritionist or a registered dietitian. It is so worth it. So, if you're interested in learning more or if you know you want to set up an appointment, you can call the office today at 651-699-3438.
LEA: Right, right. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's really helpful for parents to hear these stories of success of that yes, you can make a difference doing the effort and making these changes with the diet.
CASSIE: Like I said, it's so worth it. I mean I look at my son now compared to what he was and he can run so much longer now. He's such an active kid that loves sports, so that's great. His hair is so much healthier. His nails no longer peel and crack and he can sleep through the night because he doesn't have the acid reflux. Just so many wonderful benefits of finding the foods that work for your child. I wanted to share a little bit. I was going to do this and then Lea, you cut me off. We had to go to break. But I was looking at the most recent book that Dr. Mark Hyman wrote. Some of you may have heard of it already. I think we've talked about it on past shows. It's called Food: What the Heck Should I Eat? Great, practical title. In his book, he says sugar-sweetened beverages are the single biggest factor contributing to obesity and also linked to type two diabetes, fatty liver, kidney failure, high blood pressure, and more. And we know that “more” that Dr. Hyman is referring to includes asthma.
LEA: When I cut out juice, I definitely noticed that wasn't a cure, but there was some improvements with my asthma. I also started at that point to lose weight. I lost 50 pounds and through this journey at the end of the journey I was able to get off my inhalers.
CASSIE: That is great. And another sobering fact here to share with the listeners is that the incidence of asthma in the United States has markedly increased over the past 30 years. I think you already mentioned that early on in the show, Lea. And I can see it all around me. All you have to do is stand in the school nurse's office for a couple minutes and you'll see several kids, at least in a school our size, coming in to use their inhalers. I mean it makes me think, “What has caused this increase?” When I went to school, I did not know one single child with asthma. And I think we have to look at food. One thing for sure is Americans are eating more and more processed foods. And as a whole, Americans are eating fewer and fewer vegetables and fruits. And those processed foods are not only high in sugar, which contributes to asthma, but they also contain, most of them, a lot of bad fats.
LEA: In fact, there's evidence that people who eat diets higher in vitamin C, vitamin E, Beta carotene, magnesium, selenium and omega three fatty acids have lower rates of asthma and we think about those foods. We're talking about food, the real foods, the fruits and the vegetables and healthy fats like the Omega-3’s from good wild caught salmon. As close to the earth as possible. So, one research study about asthma and diet found that teens with poor nutrition were more likely to have asthma symptoms. I decided it's time to give up the chips and the processed food and start cooking my meals. I started cooking my meals with maybe not great choices like pasta or pizza at home, making my homemade pizzas.
CASSIE: Not realizing, probably back then that those were high sugar foods.
LEA: Exactly. Because frankly, that was all I really knew how to cook at the time and unfortunately that didn't work well for me because my asthma symptoms got worse with more inflammation. So, back to that research, I was looking more at the connection with food and asthma.
CASSIE: I think we should pause here for a minute. Talking about, not just high sugar foods, but like I mentioned, the bad fats can contribute to asthma flare ups as well. Think of store-bought crackers. They're going to be a high-sugar processed food, but they also probably contain bad fats. And the four biggest offenders that people want to look for are corn oil, soybean oil, cottonseed oil and canola oil. So, if you're in your kitchen, go to your cupboard and grab a box or a bag of something that your kid loves to eat and look at the ingredients. You need to read ingredients and you want to stay away from the corn oil, soybean oil, cottonseed oil and canola oil. And like you mentioned Lea, you were eating the pasta, the pizza, cooking it at home thinking you were doing better, not realizing that it was contributing to asthma because those foods turned to sugar. I think part of the reason why you didn't even make that realization is that for years we were taught the wrong information. We were taught high carb, low fat, and we'll get back to that thought when we come back after commercial break.
CASSIE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. As I was saying before we went to break, I think that a lot of people for years were eating things like pasta and bagels and bread because we were taught the wrong information. I grew up in the eighties and then even into the nineties when I went to college, it was the high carb, low fat message. But truly that wrong message has literally killed millions of people over the years because of all of the inflammation and the chronic disease that followed. Do you remember at one point we were being told to eat six to 11 servings of bread, cereals, and pastas. Doesn't that just sound gross right now? Just think of that. 11 slices of bread a day. And people were doing that. And what happened to our health? Inflammation and chronic disease. It makes me think of another little tidbit from Dr. Mark Hyman book, and he says “70% of Americans think granola bars are healthy even though they're really just a cookie.” What's the difference, right?
LEA: So yeah, that comes from Dr. Mark Hymans book, Food: What the Heck Should I Eat?
CASSIE: And on that note, what the heck should I eat? I want to encourage everybody to check out a recent blog post on our website. A post called Healthy School Lunch Ideas. I believe it was written by our colleague, Teresa Wagner. There are some great lunch ideas. I had my kids pick a few off of there because I knew if they picked the lunch ideas they'd be more likely to eat them. And it's been working wonderfully.
LEA: Yes, yes. We give lots of tips of so now what do I do? And this is practical, informational, simple solutions. So, back to my story. I gave up drinking juice, my asthma was a little bit better, but when I started eating pasta and pizza, homemade pizza, my asthma got worse. So, I realized I needed to dig in deeper into the research. When I did, I found that there might be a connection to my eating pasta and my asthma. I knew that people with celiac disease are unable to tolerate gluten, which is wheat, rye, and barley. I was unaware that untreated celiac disease is the root cause of at least 50 different diseases including cancer, osteoporosis, IBS, rheumatoid arthritis, anemia, and many neurological and psychological disorders, such as anxiety and depression and migraines and even autism. I also knew that I didn't have the genetic gluten sensitivity Celiac, but perhaps I had a non-celiac gluten sensitivity. So, per Dar’s advice after meeting with her, I did the same like you. Eleven years ago, now. I stopped eating gluten grains and I also did dairy, too. And my asthma got significantly better to a point where I was able to get off my inhalers.
CASSIE: Wow. I don't think a lot of people realize that's achievable. So, you gave up gluten and dairy and those were two big pieces of the puzzle.
LEA: Night and day difference for me. Now, for that reason, today, 11 years now, I do not eat bread and pastas and pizzas and cookies and cakes and my asthma has been in total remission for 11 years.
CASSIE: Wow. And I've seen that in clinical practice, that's the case for a lot of kids with asthma when they go gluten free and of course get the high sugar foods out of their diet.
LEA: Which is an important number one step. I'm really glad I did that because I maybe wouldn’t have had such a dramatic change in my asthma symptoms had I been eating a lot of other high sugar foods.
CASSIE: Great point. Well, you've been sharing some research. I have some here in front of me that I want to share according to a study reported in the journal called The Allergy and Clinical Immunology. This was back in their April 2011 edition. There is a correlation between the number of people being diagnosed with asthma and those who have a gluten intolerance. And you are living proof. So if you are a parent listening and your child has asthma, I think you owe it to them. You owe it to yourself, to them, to the whole family to try giving up gluten. So, no more bread, no more pasta, no more Mac and cheese. Please, no more breakfast cereals. Those have gluten and high sugar. And, yes, you'll need to find some substitutions, but that's when coming in and meeting with a nutritionist or a Dietitian can really be helpful.
LEA: And today we're trying to cover all the possible nutritional factors that influence the relationship of either foods or supplements to asthma. Last week on our show was all about probiotics and health. And so, here's a study reporting the relationship between probiotics, bifido bacteria and allergy asthma. This study was done in Turkey and basically found that children who had a higher percentage of Bifidobacteria Longum had less asthma and allergic dermatitis. So, I started taking bifido bacteria in powder form and again, my asthma was better. And after a few months, like I had shared, I no longer needed my inhalers. No more coughing, number, wheezing, no more shortness of breath. Like it was a dramatic shift for me.
CASSIE: You are really walking and living proof of that tagline that we sometimes give, “Change your nutrition to change your life.” And even after you've had two pregnancies, you're a busy working mom and you have not had a relapse.
LEA: No. And each pregnancy I gained 50 pounds and that can be a tricky time with auto immune for things to bubble up. And I really have been fortunate that for me that was a life changing thing. The intolerances to those foods. A few key supplements adding in like the GLA, Omega-3 fatty acids, the bifido bacteria, a low sugar diet, high fat diet. And a lot of good healthy fats that we were mentioning earlier. Fat is an important component to it too.
CASSIE:You don't want to just cut out the bad fats. You want to add in the good fats, the butter, the olive oil, all those.
LEA: Yes. Well, our goal at Nutritional Weight & Wellness is to help each and every person experience better health through eating real food. It's a simple, yet powerful message. Eating real food is life changing. I want to thank everyone today for listening.