June 9, 2019
“I know what I should do. I just don’t know why I don’t do it.” Sound familiar? Listen in as Dr. Bobinet, author of Well Designed Life, 10 Lessons in Brain Science and Design Thinking for a Mindful, Healthy, and Purposeful Life shares simple techniques to help you design your life, the life you want to live. Dr. Bobinet has uniquely combined the core principle of design-thinking with the neuroscience of behavior change resulting in powerful lessons to share.
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DARLENE: Welcome to Dishing Up Nutrition! We have a great show planned for you today. Marcie and I will be interviewing the author of Well Designed Life, Dr. Kyra Bobinet. Her book will give you some ideas and simple techniques to help you design your life, the life that you want to live. I'm Darlene Kvist. I'm a Licensed Nutritionist, and I've been hosting Dishing Up Nutrition for the past 16 years. One of my goals as a nutritionist and as a creator of this show and podcast is not only to teach people what to eat, but also to help them actually do what they know they need to do to feel better. That's the hard part.
MARCIE: That is sometimes the hardest part. You're right, Dar.
DARLENE:When I'm teaching a nutrition class or working individually with a client, I'm always asking myself, what can I say or what kind of questions can I ask, or how can I get into their head so I can help them make the necessary changes in their eating habits? We were talking about this before we went on air. That's a big part of our daily counseling. So I'm always looking at what is that thing that will turn on the switch in their brain to help them choose eggs over a bowl of cereal or grilled salmon over pizza. When this new book Well Designed Life came across my desk, I was really intrigued. I thought, here's another set of tools I can use to help people design their life so they can be the person that they really want to be. And I'm not sure how many people have even thought about that. I've been interested in helping people make behavior changes since way back in the early 1960s when I was majoring in psychology. You know Marcie. She's here with me; you heard a voice. She's also a Licensed Nutritionist and has a great interest in helping people make these changes too. Before we went on air, you said how much of your counseling an hour is spent on—
MARCIE: Oh, I think I spend 45 minutes talking about how to make the change. Fifteen minutes on nutrition.
DARLENE: She's joining us to keep the show together. We always need that. I do. So with that, good morning, Marcie.
MARCIE: Good morning, everyone out there. The book we're talking about today, the Well Designed Life, 10 Lessons in Brain Science and Design Thinking for a Mindful, Healthy, and Purposeful Life. Dr. Bobinet is a medical doctor who has managed to combine the core principle of design thinking with the neuroscience of behavior change. Have you ever said this: "I know what I should do. I just don't know why I don't do it."
DARLENE: I think a lot of people have said that.
MARCIE: So Dr. Bobinet is going to give us some interesting solutions today, and I'm excited to hear them all and share them with you.
DARLENE: I know that Dr. Bobinet is on the line because our producer told us so. Welcome to the show. Welcome to Dishing Up Nutrition.
DR. BOBINET: Thank you.
DARLENE: I think you're calling in from California, aren't you?
DR. BOBINET: Yes, that's right.
DARLENE: So you're up very early. Thank you very much for being on the show.
DR. BOBINET: Oh it's my pleasure!
DARLENE: You said in your book that you spend a lot of time experimenting on your own behavior. I think that's great because then it makes it really personal. I think most of our listeners can relate to you on that one because they're always asking the questions such as, "How can I get myself to do the things that are good for me without getting stuck? And you said this one, and I liked that you said that, without getting stuck in fear or self-defeating emotions. You also said, "I'm obsessed with what causes us to behave and feel the way we do. So then you can be more helpful to your clients." And here's your professional stuff: You teach at Stanford School of Medicine. You created a design firm. You help people in organizations change their behavior for the better. If a person has a habit or a behavior they want to change, what have you found that will help the person make the necessary changes? Now that's a big one because we work on this all the time. So I'll be quiet now and let you talk a little bit.
DR. BOBINET: In my research I found something really interesting, which is that there's basically two types of people. When you talk about behavior change. One group is what's probably most familiar to everyone, which is that you start off January 1 and you have a New Year's resolution, or you start diet, or you say, "I'm never doing that again." Only to find out in a little while there you are doing it again. And then that builds up this terrible side effect, which is failure or shame or guilt feelings. The second type of person though has the answer, which is that they think like designers. They basically tweak what they're doing. They do something called iteration. They iterate on it. Instead of thinking that they failed, they just slightly adjust something based on what they just learned about what doesn't work. And so their mindset is completely different, and all that matters to get yourself to do what you want to do is that you keep trying something, anything, anything that is next for you. And that's a very specific type of person. And what we're finding is that people who don't think like that can learn to think like that and can also be better at changing their own behavior.
DARLENE: That's an interesting concept because I know myself pretty well, and I am one of those people that tweaks, as you call it. If something isn't working, I go a little different route. But I have an idea of where I want to go. I've set a goal and I kind of slice in and go until I achieve it, but it's interesting, Marcie, would you say maybe a three-fourths of our clients, at least half of our clients, they're not like that.
MARCIE: No, no. They just see that it's not working so they're done. And we're always talking about the tweaking of things, either the diet or the behavior and all of that kind of thing. So, yes, Dr. Bobinet, what would you say you run into like 50/50 people are like this?
DR. BOBINET: We have seen more like a 10/90 or 20/80. Eighty percent of people that we find approach it with a hard-fixed "this is my diet," or "this is my plan, and if my plan doesn't work or my goal doesn't work, then I failed." So just pointing it to something different, going into it saying, "You're here not to diet or change how you eat, you're here to change your mindset and the weight will follow the mind."
DARLENE: Totally agree with you. This is kind of a new term. You think, and I know I do, like a designer. I have a mindset like a designer and I'm going to achieve my goal. And you say then there's no failure. Go into that a little bit more. And even give that example of where you are drinking water and how it really works in real life.
DR. BOBINET: Of course. There's a part of our brain that basically counts failure and that same part of your brain has its finger on your motivation. If you trigger that part of your brain by thinking, "Oh I failed," or "Oh this is failing," or "Oh I didn't do the thing," then that part of your brain wakes up and kills your motivation to try again. All we're trying to do is go around that part of the brain and never wake it up. So for example, when somebody I knew had set a goal for drinking more water, she did it really well, but, like most of us, for about a week. And then the second week started to slip, which is very typical. And then by the third week she completely stopped doing it. There's all kinds of reasons, but for her in particular, she had a job where she couldn't drink that much water because she couldn't go use the restroom that often. She didn't realize it. But it was not feasible. She wasn't able to do that for a whole day. So that's why she backed off. It wasn't because she was bad or because she was wrong or anything like that. So she had to tweak—again, the magical word iteration or tweaking—what she was doing so that it fit her life.
DARLENE: Drinking that water is something we hear over and over. Not being able to go to the bathroom, teachers. They can't leave the classroom. So it's trying to figure out, okay, how can you do this? So I agree.
DARLENE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. Our topic today is focused on the book Well Designed Life, written by Dr. Kyra Bobinet. This book has an interesting concept in it that each of us has the power to design our life. Of course as nutritionists, I believe that we can design a plan for what we eat and when we eat if we make a conscious decision to do so. Classes and counseling can definitely help. But in reality it is up to each of us as individuals to do it. In my opinion, knowing what foods make you feel the best and think the best is the starting point of a well-designed life. And that's what we talk about all the time. So, Marcie, you wanted to go back to the very beginning
MARCIE: Yeah, just for a minute. Dr. Bobinet, I had a question for you. You're talking about the designers and the non-designers, and Dar had brought up people getting stuck in fear or in that self-defeating emotion. How much of that do you think plays into whether you're a good designer or not a designer at all, perhaps?
DR. BOBINET: It turns out that emotion is everything in terms of driving our behavior. We can't make a choice without having an emotion. If you cut off all of your emotion centers, you wouldn't be able to have any choices or even know what you want to eat at all. So the trick here is to manage so that thinking like a designer and thinking, "I'm designing this," puts you in charge. That puts you in a more positive light. And it also helps to protect you against the negative emotions that might kick up from your subconscious when you try to do something new.
DARLENE: I think that's one of the things, as we're working with clients, and maybe it's not a typical nutritionist or dietitian's role, but that's how we practice. We try to help people think in a positive way about everything and change that emotion.
MARCIE: Yeah, thinking positive toward their food. A lot of people come in with, "I have bad foods," "I have good foods." Well, all food is okay. Let's just find the best food for you and make that change. They're taking the emotion and setting it a different way. The big piece of your book is how to design our own life. I wonder how many people sit down and think about the life they want to live and how many people know they actually have the power to design their own life. Like Dar was saying earlier, how many people are really thinking about designing their own life? I know I take time to think about that, and Dar brought that up too. How do you get to the place of thinking about doing that in your own life? Some people are maybe raised to problem solve. And on the other hand, there are others who are just not in touch with their power to design their own life at all. So can you talk a little bit about that, Dr. Bobinet, how you get people to learn this design thinking?
DR. BOBINET: Absolutely. I think the first part is, whether you're a nutritionist or a person who's trying to help your family member, that the idea is that you just set the different expectation. So instead of thinking "I'm going to start a diet," or "I'm going to start a program," or "I'm going to do this," instead of focusing on the what, focus on the why, which is that you are here to experiment. And so having that shift in someone's approach from the very beginning helps them to understand this mindset. And then also just telling them that it's all about thinking like a designer. If you think like a designer, you will have the eating habits that you always wished you would. I grew up in Oklahoma, and I have to say I probably had three meals a day through a drive-thru at various points in my life. And I was very addicted to fast food and the worst food you could imagine. And I was heavier than my peers because of that. And I felt all of these things. And so being able to tweak, do one less a visit to the drive-thru a day or per week, just starting out small. See what you can get yourself to do and that interest and that curiosity helps to counteract all of these negative emotions we have about ourselves.
DARLENE: Dr. Bobinet, go into that in a little more detail because that certainly is something that we deal with with clients all the time. How did you actually train your brain or change your behavior to eliminate going once a day to finally not going to fast food at all?
DR. BOBINET: In the brain there is a study that was done watching people's brains when they choose food. And in one group of people who were of normal weight, they showed that they chose based on asking the question to themselves, which of these is the most healthy option? So let's say you're in a salad bar or you're in a buffet type situation, those people would pick food based on the health qualities of the food. Other people who struggled with weight or who were like me going through the drive-thru three times a day looked at it through a different Lens. They asked the question, which of these is going to taste the best? Which is very short-term thinking. So part of it is learning to ask a different question that triggers your brain in a different way. And in my case, with the three times a day, I asked myself the question, how can I eat something else besides drive-thru today or for breakfast? How can I go a little longer without going through the drive-thru? Can I go one more hour before I go through the drive-thru. And just by putting that space in there, a day became a week, a week became a month, a month became a year. And right now—I relapsed every couple of years—but right now I'm on two years without going through a drive-thru.
MARCIE: Very nice!
DR. BOBINET: It allows your brain to catch up with you, too, because our brains actually take your behavior and they pave a road to make that behavior easier that you repeat all the time. So if I repeat drive-thru, drive-thru, drive-thru, then I'm going to get that kind of brain. If I repeat the stretch, stretch, stretch between the drive-thru, it will construct that road for me as well.
DARLENE: That is a powerful kind of behavior change, and you're in control and in charge.
MARCIE: And like I always tell my clients, just practice one thing, get really good at it, and then you move on to the next thing. And I think that's what you're saying, Dr. Bobinet. You just kept practicing, kept practicing, and then you moved on. And another thing I liked that you said was instead of the using the word change, you use the word experiment. It's so much less daunting to people. "Hey, let's just try this experiment. You know what? If it fails, we'll try something different." Instead of, "Oh my gosh, we're going to change."
DARLENE: The other example that you gave in your book that I really liked and because of course we're working with people who are trying to get them to eat better—and oh, it looks like we need to go to break. Let me put it out so when we come back from break you'll have an idea of what we're going to talk about. But you had an example of how you helped your daughter change her eating, getting off of the junk food and into healthier eating. And I think it was great. I mean, it's simple!
MARCIE: We'll leave it as a cliff hanger!
DARLENE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. As you know, we teach many, many nutrition classes throughout the Minneapolis/St. Paul Metro area and online at weightandwellness.com. Here's one example of a client who made the decision to design her life in a different way. She took the Nutrition 4 Weight Loss program, and here are some things that she said. "I started listening to the Dishing Up Nutrition podcast and liked the idea of no processed foods and no counting calories." How did it work? Well, she said, "I lost 13 pounds, my clothes fit better, and my health has improved."
MARCIE: That's right. And some of you may be wondering how did her health improve? She had fewer hot flashes, better sleep, fewer leg cramps. And she also said, "I like the honesty and the great tips from the instructors."
DARLENE: She also said one other thing that I want to add, "It is a lot of planning and it takes a lot of work, but when I follow through, it is so worth it." And that's all about designing your life.
MARCIE:Yes, exactly. So when we left before break, Dar asked the question, Dr. Bobinet, how you had gotten your daughter to stop eating junk foods. So how did you redesign that for her?
DR. BOBINET: As a parent I think we're dealing more and more with everybody has a birthday party at school and they bring home stuff and people swap things out for lunch. So it just feels like they go into this world of junk food and then they come back home with all of it in their pockets and their backpacks and all over the place. So basically I noticed this and I was just puzzled. How do I help her? I could see that she was trying to have unhealthy eating habits. She was also feeling lethargic. She also was gaining some belly fat and things that are kind of indicative of this. And so I basically started to work with her on having a little bit each day. So I would shrink it, and I also would throw away anything that she didn't eat so that it wasn't lying ground. And I also hid it. So what the brain does, is that it focuses on the tasty food if they can see it. It's like you have a dog, it just can't stop looking at the treats. So we're the exact way. And so I would put it in the cupboard, or I would put it in the freezer, or I would throw it away if I could after they went to bed.
DARLENE: So you also did another trick, I thought. You redesigned your refrigerator somehow.
DR. BOBINET: Yeah. And a lot of people that I've talked to really get a good change out of that for their whole family. They put things that are healthy at eye level, just like the grocery stores do, they want us to buy the things that are at eye level.
DARLENE: They don't put healthy things out though! *Laughs*
DR. BOBINET: No, unfortunately, but we can use that same trick to help ourselves. So we reverse-design that. My fridge looks very different. You know, clear containers. I had to get rid of some things, but I think you could do that gradually if it's too expensive to do it all at once. I was a single mom and so I needed to have a little bit of time to convert.
DARLENE: One of the things that I do for myself because I am on the move a lot and sometimes for little snack ideas, I need a protein shake, so I make up extra protein shakes, just put them in the front of the refrigerator so that it's the first thing that I grab and nothing else. I'm sure you do something like that.
MARCIE: Oh yeah. And just simple things. But I actually did the same thing you did, Dr. Bobinet, even before I read your book. And when I saw it in there, I'm like, oh, I do that too. But for my kids, I put it all at their eye level because if they don't see healthy food, they're not going to eat it.
DARLENE: And Marcy has twins. How old are they?
MARCIE: They are going to be 12 soon. But I think it works well if they can see that. They'll grab that instead of go to the pantry. So great tip right there. And as we're teaching people how to eat and putting them on an eating plan, we design their days and weeks to help them follow this plan. And they'll be on it. They'll lose the weight. They'll have more energy, fewer aches and pains, and probably feel pretty good. They'll come back and say, "I feel great," but then they come back maybe a couple of weeks later and they're saying, "Hmm things aren't going so well." They fell off, they became distracted for one reason or another, and they're not losing weight and they're frustrated. So why are we seeing that? And what would you say, Dr. Bobinet?
DR. BOBINET: This is what we're up against, right? It is the most frustrating thing. And it's one of those things, but if we expect to be on a diet or on a plan or on a whatever, then we're focused on that instead of the experiment, then we are going to get frustrated. So if we know that it's an experiment and we say, "Oh, in the experiment, the results were: I started ignoring my plan," then we can start to tweak it. Going back to the area of the brain called the habenula, it's right there waiting to register any failure that you think you have and then to control your motivation. And so when people find that when they're frustrated, they stopped wanting to try again, that's the clue that that's happening in your brain. It's basically affecting your motivation to try again. So if there's a way to tell yourself, "Oh, I just learned what didn't work. Great. Yay! Good for me." And then re-frame it and go back to, "All right, so now what's going to get my attention? That only got my attention for a week, which was great, but then I forgot it." So that's the kind of mindset that we have to continue to look for the next thing.
DARLENE: That fits in pretty nicely because in our Nutrition 4 Weight Loss program, we don't weigh people at our classes because we want them to focus on their healthy eating and not on the number on the scale. I've heard it over and over from clients. If people focus on the number and it's going to be a weigh-in day, they'll starve themselves before they weigh in, but then as soon as they've weighed in, they'll go off and join their friends for pie. I hear that all the time. Or ice cream or whatever it is. So our goal fits in pretty nicely with your book to help people look at eating real food, not just diet, diet, diet and weigh in and then go binge. We encourage them to track their food and not their weight. I know you've done a lot of research on tracking. Could you talk a little bit about that? I think most people think in terms of, "Okay, I'm tracking, I want to track my weight or how far I run or something like that." But you take it at a different step.
DR. BOBINET: Just going back to that point, when people run out of ideas or they see that something's not working, the best thing is to have a nutritionist as a partner to help you what's called "ideate" in design thinking. It's just coming up with more ideas about what could work and then finding one that you're attracted to. So then once you have something that you're trying, then you want to track against that. You want to say, is it working? Tracking is really just saying is this working or is it not working? And then becoming aware using brain resources, because the brain is very stingy. It doesn't want you to spend any extra attention that it doesn't have to. And so tracking is basically a discipline of, hey, let me just, on purpose, pay attention to this thing because it's probably getting the better of me and it's a pattern that I need to know about. But what happens is that once I know about the pattern, then long-term tracking really becomes exhaustive. It's just a phase that at the beginning when you're starting, you need to learn a different way and you need to have awareness of what your old habits we're doing and what your new habits are going to do for you.
DARLENE: If you could say that over because I think that is key what you just said.
DR. BOBINET: We probably could track for a good three weeks solid and then maybe up to 16 weeks or four months is what our brains can handle. But what we're really doing with tracking is we're just taking a beginning step in understanding the truth and using our awareness of what's getting the better of us and what might be a better way to do things. And being able to watch that process through tracking is really helpful.
MARCIE: It is, it is. I am always telling people to find the pattern and then we can work with that.
DARLENE: It's using your brain to help develop better behavior patterns.
MARCIE: So that when you relapse, as we sometimes do, we can we can learn how to avoid it or we'll know our pattern and we'll know how to get back more quickly. So can you talk a little bit about relapse? I know that we touched on it earlier in your fast food journey that you do that every now and again. But you talk about it in your book. Can you expand on the relapse portion?
DR. BOBINET: Yeah, absolutely. So I think it really helps people to understand how their brain works with relapse. So let's say you have an old highway that you go to work on or you go to visit your friend on and that's your bad habits, right? And it's paved. It's very fast. It's part of the fast brain. And then I try to do a new route. I try to do a new journey—better eating habits in this case—and my brain's going to build a new highway because I've repeatedly told it this is important to me. I'm going to practice this, I'm going to keep doing it. And the longer I do it, the more paved and fast that road gets. What people don't realize is that forever and ever from that point forward, you have two highways. When relapse happens, it just means that you somehow got distracted or tired or stressed and you went onto the old highway mindlessly. And all you need to do is pull off the highway, go back onto the new highway that you'd rather be on. And no big deal. But it's because we make it a big deal, because we know what's going to happen, and yet every time it happens we're completely shocked. And so what I do from the beginning is it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when you will relapse. And say, "What is it the triggered me?" Or, "I don't even want to know what triggered me. I'm just going to go back onto the other highway that I'd rather be on." No big deal. So there's a lot of different mental strategies to get yourself back into the area of your brain that you'd rather be in.
DARLENE: We need to take another break quick, but when we come back, think about some of this and let's talk a little bit more about changing pathways because that's new thinking for a lot of people and maybe you can come up with some other examples when we come back.
MARCIE: You're listening to Dishing Up Nutrition. On July 23, we start a new series of Nutrition 4 Weight Loss group classes at all seven of our locations. Or, you can start the online version of Nutrition 4 Weight Loss anytime at your convenience. If part of your well-designed life is to change your nutrition to experience better health, I suggest taking our 12-week Nutrition 4 Weight Loss series. It's a real-food eating plan that is designed to reduce cravings, increase energy, drop extra pounds, and get rid of aches and pains. Call (651) 699-3438 to sign up or go online at weightandwellness.com for more information.
DARLENE: Welcome back to Dishing Up Nutrition. If you're struggling with low moods and fatigue, I want to remind you that excess sugar and foods that turn into sugar, like bread and pasta, block the reception of serotonin into your cells, so you don't benefit from the serotonin that you've just produced in your small intestinal track. My tip today for better moods is to cut out eating sugar and processed carbs. Just try it for three weeks and see how much better you feel. It's that experimenting.
MARCIE: We want to thank Dr. Bobinet for joining us this morning. It's been such a pleasure to have her on this show and she's written a great, fascinating book. I really enjoyed it. The Well Designed Life. Dr. Bobinet is the CEO of engagedIN, a neuroscience-based design firm that specializes in changing behavior.
DARLENE: She has a lot of good information in her book—a way to think about behavior in a different way. I encourage you to tune in next week to listen to Carolyn and JoAnn as they discuss how foods can help you prevent hair loss and hair thinning. So where were we before we went on break?
MARCIE: Well, I think we wanted Dr. Bobinet to talk a little bit more about those pathways.
DR. BOBINET: Yeah, absolutely. So you mean the two highways, right?
MARCIE: Yes, yes.
DR. BOBINET: It's a good metaphor for people because oftentimes we have this all-or-none thinking that is wrong. It's not what's going on in the brain. And also there's a false expectation that somehow when our bad habits go away, that the machinery that made those happen is also gone. And it'll never come back. And so having this metaphor of the two highways, the old habits and the new habits, and that you always, always, always have both available to you. And you can build one up or the other and the brain just doesn't care. The brain's going to do what you tell it to do. And so you get to choose. And part of the magic is, if you find yourself on the old highway, all you have to do is exit the highway. You don't have to stay there. And what they also find is that in the National Weight Loss Registry, which is a measure of how tens of thousands of people actually lose weight and succeed, is that the people who spend the least amount of time in their relapse state on that old highway have the longest and the best success.
DARLENE: So they know how to detour back to the good pathway or the healthy pathway.
MARCIE: That's right. And it just takes practice.
DR. BOBINET: It takes practice. I also have noticed that people who are good at that, they usually have a little slogan, a trigger word or trigger phrase like "Tomorrow's a new day." So if I go to a party and I have a little piece of cake and that sets off a whole monster inside of me and I start eating the entire cake and everything else in sight, then the next day I start with a slogan, "Well, I didn't go all the way back. I'm better off than I used to be." Those kinds of phrases that people say to themselves are super important so they don't continue to fall and tumble and tumble and tumble.
DARLENE: I think Dr. Barry Sears in his book The Zone, says very much the same thing, in a way, because he said you can be re-balanced with the next meal or snack. It doesn't mean that you have to go ahead and binge for the next two days on chocolate cake or something.
MARCIE: Right. And as I was recovering with my eating disorder years ago, I had a slogan and I would say, "This who I am today." So if it wasn't going great, this is just who I was that day, the next day I would just be another version of me, just a little bit better. I really liked that, having a little slogan.
DARLENE: So Dr. Bobinet, you've also mentioned in your book about attachments. Can you cover that a little bit because I think that's new thinking for a lot of people.
DR. BOBINET: Yeah. Our brains fixate on things and we become attached to things that create pleasure, even if it's short-term thinking. And so part of the reason why we relapse is that we start to miss attachments and the things that we always are used to eating and that give us that pleasure. And we start to build up a sense of deprivation over the time when we are doing the behavior change, and that eventually snaps and then we go back to relapsing. What I find that people who are good with attachments are doing differently is that they're basically either shrinking the attachments, making a little bit less like my addiction to the drive-thru, for example. Making that little bit less, little bit less, little bit less as much as you can, whether it's a time between doing those things or the amount each time you do it. Different people have different strategies that worked for them. And then the other thing that people do is they forgive themselves for having those attachments and have a different relationship with it over time. So everything around attachment has to be a gradual thing. Even if you get somebody to go cold turkey from the beginning, eventually they'll want some sort of version of it, some sort of substitute. For me it was soy chai. I got really addicted to soy chai, and full-sugar soy chai has about 53 grams of sugar. I know you're cringing right now.
MARCIE: Yes. *Laughs*
DR. BOBINET: I got up to like two a day. It was pretty bad. I had to gradually reduce the size of those and then the sugar content of those and just really wean myself off little by little by little so that my brain didn't freak out.
DARLENE: I have so many more questions, but it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show today, and you've got really great thinking, because, you know what, we kind of think like you do.
MARCIE: Exactly. That's why it's so fun to talk to you.
DARLENE: It's really been a great pleasure to have you on today.
MARCIE: Yes, thank you so much, Dr. Bobinet.
DR. BOBINET: It's been my pleasure. Thank you for your work.
MARCIE: Our goal at Nutritional Weight and Wellness is to help each and every person experience better health through eating real food. It's a simple yet powerful message. Eating real food is life changing.
DARLENE: I encourage everyone to go pick up the Well Designed Life and give it a read, and pick out the things that really seem important for you, and maybe take a new pathway.
MARCIE: That's right. It can change your life.